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Most of us have prob. been on both sides of this one---I am sure we can all agree that Chain of Command is essential to complete our missions--but what about when you are working for idiots, how do you maike sure you and your crew come home safe? How about being the "in Command" and having dissenttion in the ranks....
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Re: Chain of Command vs. independant thinkers
Mon, June 4, 2007 - 7:44 AMI've been on both sides of this one.
Establishing chain of command from the top down is a heck of a lot easier than working under idiots.
Usually, there will be one or two cowboys who show up on scene who may have watched too much "Rescue Hero" and think that their job is to do it all on the scene. It isn't lack of training, cause we keep our new guys back from the line (it was much worse when we didn't), I put it down to just a little too much adrenaline. Putting these guys under the close supervision of a trusted officer or firefighter can often calm them down.
Going the other way up is harder. On a couple of the big scenes that we've had over the years, we did have some guys from way up on the city chain of command show up, but they were sensible and only put themselves at the top of the chain of command and let the sectors handle their roles.
It was the cases when the Command guys start micromanaging the work that we got in trouble. Biggest sign of this happening is when the Incident Commander started walking around in the hazard zone, without SCBA, and telling individual firefighters what they should be doing. It turned into a zoo. People started running off on their own, based on the commands of the IC, accountability went out the window, and teams disintegrated before our eyes. It was chaos for 20 minutes until we discovered the problem. "See the guy in the white hat....get him back to the command bus"
Probably not the first time that the act of ordering donuts saved countless firefighter lives.
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Unsu...
Re: Chain of Command vs. independant thinkers
Mon, June 4, 2007 - 12:54 PM>Chain of Command vs. independant thinkers<
I don't believe independent thinkers should be in the fire service.
I know we all know what the word "independent” means, but lets take a closer look at the definition:
independent >adjective 1 free from outside control or influence. 2 (of a country) self governing. 3 not depending on another for livelihood or subsistence. 4 not connected with another; separate. 5 (of broadcasting, a school, etc.) not supported by public funds. >noun an independent person or body.
That word has no place in the fire service.
>but what about when you are working for idiots, how do you make sure you and your crew come home safe?<
I think a lot of times some can get labeled “idiot” do to politics and isn't always an accurate assessment of someone in charge. If you do happen to get an assignment that you feel is unsafe for you and your crew, then I feel you have every right and have an obligation to refuse that assignment. But as far as disagreeing about how an incident is being managed; If you aren't apart of the management team, then that shouldn’t be your concern. Your only job is the one you were trained for and assigned.
The worst thing about the fire service in my opinion is the politics. -
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Re: Chain of Command vs. independant thinkers
Mon, June 4, 2007 - 3:51 PMHaving worked for my fair share of idiots...lol
Rik has a good point right after his first sentence(and maybe further down too.). I do think the FS thrives on a vast array of independant thinkers and amazing personalities. If we didn't have that particular trait we would never come up with half the tools we need(mental and physical) to get a job done. However, I WILL go along with what the FS is starving for is discipline. Not the standing in a row with all our shirts the same and blahblahblah... people who are mission focused and able to carry out a job and maintain in-house relationships because of self-control and vision.
The problem with the following less-than-ideal leaders will forever be that we put people in thise positions that do not belong there. Maybe they are whip-ass firefighters or paramedics or a desired minority (another touchy argument for later after our first round of margaritas). Maybe they scored the highest on a 100 question test prepared by the Civil Service Commission who are comprised of....no firefighters or officers. None of the aforementioned traits culls out idiots and instills people that are a)good tacticians b)excellent people managers c)comprehnsive and foresightful thinkers.
We all know that almost nobody gets dinged for being mistakes of the fireground. We are all good at following orders and that should be easy to fix. Where officers get into trouble is dealing with the subordinates. Many have no idea how to manage day to day operations of firefighters with diverse needs and personalities yet we spend a fourth (or a third depending on your shiftwork) with these people. They are regularly rude, violate the law, are inflexible, and act like it is just a giant slumber party everynight. Now, that being said.... those types are fortunately in the minority. I think. I hope.
So... I didn't provide any solutions though we can also debate the neccessity of an Assessment Board (OoOoOOooooooOoO!) later. -
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Re: Chain of Command vs. independant thinkers
Wed, June 6, 2007 - 10:39 PM"people who are mission focused and able to carry out a job and maintain in-house relationships because of self-control and vision."
I have to agree with K--independant thinkers are not the problem--and independant doesn't need to mean "not disciplined"---but the politics of promotion and entitlement seem to way too often have the wrong person in the Officer's seat on the incoming engine or wearing the white hat.
And, for the sake of the service, I can usually "do as I am told" and overlook the deviation from standard operating policy and safety standards--but that little voice in the back of my head says Pang Warehouse Fire, or Coos Bay and I know "this" fire isn't turning to sh*t and this patient is going to be all right, but aren't we supposed to train (and fight the easy ones, and treat the patients) the way we MUST operate when there is real danger....I am so tired of "shirts the same" = Discipline.
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no to independent thinkers?!
Tue, December 18, 2007 - 7:00 PMIndependent thinking is CRITICAL to safe firefighting, and paradoxically can be detrimental to the same. I have worked for 3 of my 5 seasons for the same captain, who knows I am an independent thinker, and is one himself. When he receives orders from his supervisor, he goes through a process of figuring out how he can best accomplish the objectives he has been given. Sure, they may have said that they want line from A to B, or lighting done from C to D, but is he going to put Guse on lookout, Ryan on a torch, and what to do with Behr? He has to decide how his resources will best be put to use, and also think of his crew's morale. Maybe Guse has been on lookout for the past ten days and it's worked out the best so far, but wouldn't he like to do some lighting or cut a little line by now? There's a balance between who's best suited for which job and keeping your crew happy. They are humans, after all, and they have goals and feelings and maybe so and so needs to work on his squadie taskbook, etc., etc. There's dozens of considerations for thousands of different situations and dynamics and for those dynamic situations you need someone who can think on their feet, not a robot that carries out the latest commands you've plugged into it. You need someone who can occasionally envision a better plan or an adaptation of the current one.
Now, you don't want naysayers. Someone who bitches and moans about every assignment because "this is stupid" and hurts the productivity of everyone, including the poor supervisor that has take time to deal with it. That's not an independent thinker, that's a whiner. Anyone can be a whiner, and most people ARE at some point or other during the season. The thing is to not make it a constant habit, because that's just annoying.
Chain of Command to me means you are responsible to your immediate supervisor and responsible for your immediate subordinates (or "peons" as Guse likes to call them). This means you are justified in submitting your ideas if they will help your supervisor achieve the objectives more efficiently. Most of the time, new ideas are not justifiable. We've been doing this a long time, and chances are your supervisor has been doing it longer than you, so shut up put your head down and keep cuttin'. Every once in a while a situation arises where you might have a piece of information that will be helpful: "I saw a big log that crosses this stream about 2 chains back, it'd probably be better than going almost up to our knees here."
Some say nay to such helpful remarks as that. Pretty hardcore, the "do as I say when I say" school. Which I can advocate, because it lets people know where they stand and prevents insubordination. But I also think it keeps people from speaking their mind about most anything, which includes safety issues. The more information, the more minds, the better. Yes, we need to understand that when it comes down to it we follow one person, but we also need to understand that these are humans and the more brainpower we have the better off we are.
I have been lucky to work on the crews I have worked on, they have all been excellent in terms of fire safety and knowledge. My captains and squadies have all been responsible, independent thinkers and each and every one has given me experiences and information that has and will continue to help me in and outside of fire.
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